Politics as Religion?

Today the Los Angeles Times contained an opinion piece by Neal Gabler, a biographer of Ted Kennedy, titled “Politics as religion in America.” In the piece Gabler argues that segments of the right have become dogmatic and zealous in their political beliefs.

According to Gabler,

For centuries, American democracy as a process of conflict resolution has been based on give-and-take; negotiation; compromise; the acceptance of the fact that the majority rules, with respect for minority rights; and, above all, on an agreement to abide by the results of a majority vote. It takes compromise, even defeat, in stride because it is a fluid system. As historian Arthur Schlesinger Jr. once put it, the beauty of a democracy is that the minority always has the possibility of becoming the majority.

Religious fundamentalism, on the other hand, rests on immutable truths that cannot be negotiated, compromised or changed. In this, it is diametrically opposed to liberal democracy as we have practiced it in America. Democrats of every political stripe may defend democracy to the death, but very few would defend individual policies to the death. You don’t wage bloody crusades for banking regulation or the minimum wage or even healthcare reform. When politics becomes religion, however, policy too becomes a matter of life and death.

Gabler concludes by opining that “for the political fundamentalists, this isn’t political jousting, this is Armageddon. With stakes like that, they will not lose, and there is nothing democrats — small ‘d’ and capital “D” — can do about it.”

Drivel. Gabler’s argument rests on two assumptions that are simply without merit. First, he assumes that the right is unique in this “political fundamentalism”; he is wrong. Second, he believes that “political fundamentalism” is something new; it’s not.

“Political Fundamentalism” is a vague term. For Gabler it seems to refer to political beliefs that are held with religious fervor. Insofar as one truly holds a religious belief—so let’s exclude many people of faith who are, for lack of a better description, hypocritical—it inherently taints one’s political beliefs. Take Christianity as an example. The Gospels (in the broad sense of the term, the Good News) are political in nature. Jesus walked with lepers, prostitutes, and other outcasts. But most importantly, to me at least, he taught that “the poor would be poor no more” (this is a line I heard Sister Helen Prejean say at a book talk and have never forgotten). These are political messages, challenging the castes of the age and promising a better world for the downtrodden. While this isn’t directly related to health care (although he did heal), taxation (although tithes are still compulsory in countries with state-supported churches), or the place of the state (although the Romans did adopt Christianity and states made war in the name of it), Jesus was reshaping the polity; and it is undeniable that he was successful in that endeavor, even if the results were arguably malign.

While I interpret Christianity, as do many, as requiring certain benevolent political viewpoints, I realize Gabler’s issue is not with the religious, but with those for whom politics becomes like faith. But Gabler never defines how large this group is, names a single member, or anything else; we just know that they are the fringe right. But is there not a fringe left as well? Good luck convincing a Wobblie that capitalism is anything but an evil that must be opposed even at the cost of life. Has the Animal Liberation Front not violently destroyed property and life in the name of animal rights? No matter how reasonable one argues, you will never convince half of Hollywood that the Republican Party is anything but a blight to be fought with all one’s resources.

Furthermore, such virulent political stances are as old as the United States itself. America is born out of the Sons of Liberty, and the Declaration of Independence was signed despite the fact that Britain had shown a willingness to compromise and backed down on many of the taxes. Lincoln was shot over politics, as was Alexander Hamilton. You couldn’t compromise with McCarthy, Malcolm X, or Ross Perot. Martin Luther King held his political beliefs so zealously he even had the gumption to attribute them to God.

No, Mr. Gabler, you have provided no insight into the current political discourse. What we have seen in the last decade was the over-reach stage of conservatism. Liberalism had its stage too, think of the 1968 protests in Chicago. Many of the hardcore and uncompromising members of Congress have lost their seats, Gingrich is gone, and 2006 was a “thumpin’” for republicans.  Relax Neal, it’s just politics.

  • http://www.picprogrammer.org Elizabeth Taylor

    i have never been a fan of Bad Politics and bad policies in the government. they always present bad news.*,~

  • Jonathan Davis

    there is no such thing as no religion. everyone has a worldview, and a worldview is always going to be in power. even the humanist has a worldview and it can even be called a religion. so we need to find out which worldview has the best policy for everyone, and Christianity started this country and got it this far and has seemed to have worked. all the other countries that dont have Christian worldview in their politics are those countries that we see as dangerous and are home to unhappy people that escape their countries and dream about coming here. i have to say we must be doing something right.

  • http://www.teadress.org Sydney Collins

    actually, i do not like politics that much because it is a dirty job..,`

  • Abruzzo

    “Christianity started this country and got it this far and has seemed to have worked.”

    Learn the history of your country and it will save you from making such ill-informed and ridiculous remarks. The reason most Europeans came to the New World was to escape religious persecution inflicted upon them by Christians. The Puritans, The Quakers, The Hugenots and many others came over to practice their religion freely. Of course along the way the forced their views on others. Remember some colonies actually had official religons and teh federal government sought to pacify the Native Peoples by forcing Christianity on them.

  • john davis

    I believe you are forcing your beliefs on me as we speak. If someone has good news then they are going to share it, its not forcing views. They are merely doing the same thing you are doing to me.
    Anyway americas constitution was blatantly christian, including the bill of rights. Yes people did come here because the catholic church was corrupt but that doesn’t mean they weren’t christian. So like I said, this country has a christian foundation and history clearly show that.
    Besides your view of american history is the government edited version. Find unbiased sources and come to your own conclusion, not the conclusion that is spoon fed to you

  • Abruzzo

    “I believe you are forcing your beliefs on me as we speak. ”

    How is this possible? Am I making you come on the site? Am I making you read my post? No on both counts.

    Just so we are clear I’ll explain what “forcing one’s beliefs on another” means.

    -When a state, such as Texas, requires in its constitution that a person must assert a belief in god as a qualification for holding an elected position that is forcing views on someone. Using the force of government to alienate and oppress a segment of the population.

    -When a mob of people rush into a jail and kill a religious leader because the mob believes disagrees what the religious leader believes and preaches that is forcing one’s view onto another. This is an example of using the force of a large group to overpower a small group of people. If you think this hasn’t happened I suggest you look into the death of Joseph Smith at the Navoo, IL jail.

    These are examples of forcing one’s view on another. You can always log off or refuse to read posts. I have not forced my view on you.

    “Anyway americas constitution was blatantly christian, including the bill of rights.”

    Another utterly ridiculous statement. Nowhere in the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights do the words “god”, Jesus Christ”, “the Bible” or “Christian” appear. One would suspect they would if it was “blantantly” Christian.

    The oath of office for president is traditionally taken with a person putting his hand on the Bible but nowhere in the constitution is this stated as a requirement. In other words one does not need to take the oath of office on a religious book in order for it to be official. Neither are the words “so help me, god”. They are added inappropriately.

    But let’s compare what the Bible, The Bill of Rights and the US Constitution say about Religious Freedom.

    The Constitution says:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; BUT NO RELIGIOUS TEST SHALL EVER BE REQUIRED AS A QUALIFICATION TO ANY OFFICE OR PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THE UNITED STATES. (Article VI)

    The Bill of Rights says:

    Congress SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    The Bible says:

    6If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly PUT HIM TO DEATH. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 STONE HIM TO DEATH, BECAUSE HE TRIED TO TURN YOU AWAY FROM THE LORD YOUR GOD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. (Deuteronomy 13:6-11)

    1 And God spoke all these words: 2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE [a] ME. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, AM A JEALOUS GOD, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:1-6)

    I’m sure you recognize the second citation as part of the Ten Commandments. The Bible and the US Constitution are hardly in agreement.

    “Yes people did come here because the catholic church was corrupt but that doesn’t mean they weren’t christian. So like I said, this country has a christian foundation and history clearly show that.”

    Why mention just the Catholics? My example mentioned groups that were specifically persecuted by the Church of England (The Puritans and Quakers). Again please pay attention to history.

    “Besides your view of american history is the government edited version. Find unbiased sources and come to your own conclusion, not the conclusion that is spoon fed to you”

    Thanks for the advice but I already do this. I can think of no better unbiased sources to discuss what the US Constitution, The Bill of Rights and the Bible than the documents themselves. I did not quote what someone said about them I quoted the documents themselves. I suspect that in all your study of the bible none of your teachers made a point of discussing the verses in Deuteronomy I quoted or analyzing the Ten Commandment from the perspective of religious freedom. It is understandable. I mean who wants to worship a god who so blatantly objects to the basic principles of religious freedom? I guess you do.

  • John davis

    is someone forcing you to live in texas?
    and you cant force your beliefs on a dead person.
    the fact that it says “all men are created equal” is a Christian worldview not because it says created, but it says equal. and the rights that come thereafter are based on the notion that we are all equal, so like i said, blantently obvious.

    i mentioned just the catholics because that was the oppressing force. they are the reason everyone else had to come here. the church of england was catholic.

    and i dont have teachers anymore, i am self taught, and yes i agree with the above statements from the old testament. but you must realize the the old testament was written for a newly growing human race, it was to keep order and mature the human race into what it is today. and about the “only God” well if there is only one God, as the old testament suggests, then worshiping other “gods” would only cause conflict and pointlessness. so if there is only one God (as it says in the old testament) then it would only make since that God would want to be the only one worshiped for he is the only one in exsistance (according to the old testament) but i realize that you used none of the new testament.

    in the new testament its all about spreading the good news that we have to the entire world. the bible doesnt say force it, or kill anyone who doesnt believe in Christianity or anything like that so if there are people doing so it is not of God but of human nature. the mission for all christians is to spread the Gospel to anyone and everyone. its not our job to make people believe or anything like that, but only to make sure they hear it and what they do with that knowledge of the gospel is up to them.

    so do i believe in religious freedom, sure whatever floats your boat, but im still going to share the gospel to you and everyone else because thats my mission.

    im glad you look at the sources themselves, not alot of people do anymore and im sure you notice this. but doesnt it make since that if there is only one God that he would want to be the one worshiped? its not that your worshiping another god, but in reality (according to the bible for sake of argument) your worshiping nothing but what you (man) have made to be a god. so when i read that God says “only worship me” he is basically saying “dont waste your time on anything else because it isnt god or a god or anything supernatural.”

    last, the constitution and the bill of rights. those quotes you presented i agree with whole heartedly. but when it was written it was so that not one sect took over or anything like that. which again i agree with. the bill of rights is saying that beliefs arent something to be tested. like i said before, its just so one religion doesnt take over, which would be bad no matter what worldview it is because humans regardless will always mess things up.

  • Abruzzo

    “is someone forcing you to live in texas?”

    No, I choose to live in Texas. If this question is in response to my complaint about the Texas Constitution’s discrimination against Atheists and Agnostics and is meant to suggest that if I do not like what the constitution says then I should leave the state-that is ridiculous logic. If you are sincere in using this reasoning, then one can only imagine what advice you would have given Martin Luther King, Jr. and all of those who opposed segregation. “If you don’t like segregation then leave the South”.

    One can imagine you giving similar advice to abolitionists. “If you don’t like slavery, move to Canada.” The ethic I prefer to live by was captured succinctly by the aforementioned Dr. King. “An injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere.”

    I was born in Texas and I have family here. It is a beautiful state and the people are fantastic. I have lived other places and my heart was always here. It is because I love the state that I choose to improve it. I will continue to do so by pointing out the discriminatory portion of the state’s constitution and fighting to change it.

    Now I would be remiss in informing you that the religious test outlined in the state constitution is unenforceable because of the US Supreme Court’s ruling in Torcaso v. Watkins. In that case, an Atheist in Maryland was denied an appointment as a notary. He sued Maryland and was eventually successful in his endeavor. The ruling made all religious tests in state constitutions invalid. It would be an important symbolic gesture for Texas to remove that objectionable portion of its constitution but whether we do or not it is unenforceable.

    “the fact that it says “all men are created equal” is a Christian worldview not because it says created, but it says equal. and the rights that come thereafter are based on the notion that we are all equal, so like i said, blantently obvious.”

    Well if this is your argument for the US Constitution being “blatantly Christian” then we are in agreement that it is not. The quotation you cite and base your argument on is from the Declaration of Independence and not the US Constitution. Nowhere in the US Constitution does it say “all men are created equal” and in fact said just the opposite when it was written. Slavery existed in our country at the time the US Constitution was adopted and it said that slaves were only worth 3/5 a person when it came time to calculate the population. This was a compromise for a variety of reasons but it is illogical to suggest that 3/5 is equal to 1. Later that provision was changed but about 80 years later.

    I would like to take issue though with the suggestion that “all men are created equal” is in any way a Biblical concept. Let’s look at the whole quotation as you only cited a small portion.

    “ We hold these Truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness” is the full quotation from the Declaration of Independence.

    According to this logic it is god that bestows these rights on people and they are inalienable which means these rights cannot be taken away from an individual. However I will show that the Bible indicates that god never intended for people to enjoy these rights.

    Now it is well documented that Thomas Jefferson, who wrote those words, and others tried very hard and failed to get the colonies to agree to abolish slavery with the adoption of the Declaration. Jefferson knew, as did the others that slavery is the antithesis of freedom and liberty.

    Also slavery requires that one person own another person. This has the effect of robbing the slave of his or her life since he or she is not able to make decisions over owns life. If slavery were permitted it made Jefferson and all of the other slaveholders hypocrites.

    I criticize Jefferson and others for not freeing their slaves during their lifetimes but were their actions incongruent with the Bible? No they were not.

    1 Timothy 6:1-2
    All slaves should show full respect for their masters so they will not bring shame on the name of God and his teaching. If the masters are believers, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. Those slaves should work all the harder because their efforts are helping other believers[a] who are well loved.

    This sounds nice doesn’t it? Puts a nice spin on slavery. Of course this is wholly inaccurate depiction of slavery which an all-knowing god would have been well aware. Just look at this country’s own history concerning teh treatment of slaves and you will see what I mean.

    Leviticus 25:44-46
    44 “However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you.
    45 You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property,
    46 passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way.

    Titus 2:9

    Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

    Colossians 3:22

    Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

    Here is where god put his stamp of approval on slavery in both the Old testament and New Testament. In the OT he not only tells the Israelites to take slaves but makes a point of distinguishing that most people can be taken as slaves (those that are not Israelites) and that a special few (the Israelites cannot be made slaves).

    In the NT god tells the slaves they are to endure harsh treatment rather than try to escape or in any other way be displeasing to his or her master. This is wholly incongruent with the concept of Liberty or “the pursuit of happiness.”

    Ephesians 6:5-9
    5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. 9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

    Now this is a quote from the New Testatment that some Christians try to argue is the Bible’s prohibition against treating slaves badly. Masters are not to threaten their slaves and god says that he shows no favoritism. Well I would certainly suggest that if god made some people masters and others slaves the masters are receiving favorable treatment for they have their lives, liberty and can pursue happiness. A slave cannot enjoy those things if he or she intends to leave the master to do so.

    But then there is what Jesus Christ says on the matter and he is absolutely on the wrong side.

    Luke 12:42-48
    42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
    43″Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
    44″Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
    45″But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
    46the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
    47″And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
    48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

    So here Jesus actually sanctions beating slaves. Sort of makes one wonder about all that rigmarole about treating slaves well in Ephesians.

    It is true that many Christians fought against slavery and were abolitionists. Charles Darwin and his family would be good examples of this. But there were just as many, if not more, that supported slavery. My point is that The Bible is wholly wrong on slavery and that the Christians that were working to abolish slavery did so in opposition to the teachings of Jesus as cited above.
    It was the infusion of Humanism into the teachings of Jesus that saved Christianity. How could it be that the descendants of slaves in this country would adopt Christianity as their religion if the affirmation of slavery were not somehow eradicated from its teachings? If you want to ignore those parts of the Bible that is fine, I applaud that in fact. But at least be honest about what you are doing and do not try to use the Bible to support a position it does not support.

  • John davis

    ha, whoops pardon my ignorance with the constitution mix up. but a simple fix. yes they are two separate documents but they are very much related. i say this because the ideas in the declaration are the same in the constitution. the 3/5 thing and everything that has to deal with unequal persons are not of the bible, so the Christians that believed they were superior to african americans were not following what the bible says.

    this is true that slavery is in the bible but its a different slavery and i believe your ignoring that fact. Slavery in amaerica was terrible because it took people from their homes and tossed the families into work and the generations after them will be born into slavery. this is terrible and everyone should agree so. but in the bible slavery means something totally different. first, no one was born into that slavery. to be a slave in the old times, you either had a debt to work off or a captured enemy from a battle. and all of these are not of life. after you paid off your debt, your done. after you did your time, your a citizen of the people that captured you. thats the slavery that the bible talks about.two very different meanings with the same word, so be careful not to make them the same.

    so the Christians that were for slavery were for a different kind of slavery that the bible is totally against. and the Christians that went against american slavery were not going against the bible (well maybe some just because they were angry) but they were fighting for what the bible says.

    i do not ignore anything in the bible i acknowledge that it is there and whole believe in it, but dont assume my beliefs.

    also, Darwin’s findings come to one conclusion, that there can be a superior human. so in terms of evolution, we are more evolved and in fact better then africans. yes i know he came from an abolitionist family, but that doesnt mean that his findings dont say what they say. i believe there is another article on this so if you want to talk about this certain topic please take it to that thread.

  • Abruzzo

    “this is true that slavery is in the bible but its a different slavery”

    This is entirely false. I noticed that you failed to quote any bible verse to support your claim.

    “to be a slave in the old times, you either had a debt to work off or a captured enemy from a battle.and all of these are not of life. after you paid off your debt, your done.”

    Again this is untrue. Leviticus is quite clear that the Israelites were to take people form other nations and those who happened to be traveling through their country. No requirement for battle there.

    Also, the slaves taken were for life. Notice that, according to Leviticus, they are inherited property that can be passed along to future generations.

    You know this bible verse exists. Why do you continue to assert an idea you know the bible does not support?

    “but in the bible slavery means something totally different. first, no one was born into that slavery.”

    There is nothing in the bible that supports this statement. Face it slavery is slavery. I think what you call slavery is infact indentured servitude. Indentured servitude is a servant who pays a debt by working as a servant. A slave has no debt because a slave is property owned by the master.

    So I back up my claims with verses from the Bible and you do not. You merely recite the usual propaganda that bible apologists cling onto to overcome the glaring moral deficiencies of their “holy” book. Even when I cite the verse in Leviticus that describes slavery as a life-long condition you claim it to be otherwise.

    As far as Darwin’s claim of white superiority goes there is nothing to support that. Also you show a complete misunderstanding of Darwin’s theory. His theory does not show any animal or plant to be “superior” to another. His theory asserts that animals and plants have qualities that make them better able to survive. Do not confuse this with superiority. Superiority is a judgement whereas surviability is simply a fact. Either one survives or one dosen’t and the quality that allows one species to survive at one point in time may not help that species at a later point in time.

    What you refer to is “Social Darwinism” which is a bastardization of Darwin’s theory that is applied to society. It was used by people to promote superiority of one race over the other. Now this sort of predjudice is rampant throughout the bible, particularly in the Old Testament. But one will not find in any of Darwin’s writings any racist sentiments.

  • Jim

    That’s the reason people migrated to America, evil started slavery in America not God Almighty. America offered new hope and the U.S. Constitution and its mostly Christian writers used Gods Ten Commandments on which to base its laws on that we live by today.
    Also, the only reason that America the Republic has out lasted all other is due to the fact that Almighty God has blessed it. Other countries have tried it and failed because they did not hold to the high moral standards as America’s founding Fathers did.
    In regards to God not being mention America’s founding documents…

    IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

    He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

    He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

    He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

    He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

    He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

    He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

    He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

    He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

    He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

    He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

    He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

    For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

    For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

    For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

    For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

    He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

    He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

    He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

    He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

    He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

    Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

    — John Hancock

  • John davis

    what Jim said

  • Abruzzo

    “evil started slavery in America not God Almighty.”

    Please refer to Leviticus and you will see how wrong this statement is.

    “Also, the only reason that America the Republic has out lasted all other is due to the fact that Almighty God has blessed it. Other countries have tried it and failed because they did not hold to the high moral standards as America’s founding Fathers did.”

    Your grasp of history is as bad as John’s. England has a much longer history as a country than the US does. The Netherlands, Germany, Italy and other European countries all have much longer histories as soverign nations than the US. Of course other peoples such as the African or Asian peoples have significantly longer histories as a community than the US but thanks to the imperialism of the “Christian” nations of Europe these peoples were subjugated and had to fight for their independance. Had the good Christians from Europe left them alone then they too would have had longer histories than the US

    “In regards to God not being mention America’s founding documents…”

    You really should read the posts before you comment on them. The debate was whether The US Constitution was based on Christian principles. John misquoted the Constitution as having the phrase “All men are created equal” that does not appear in The US Constitution. No one questioned whether god was mentioned in the Declaration.

    “John Hancock”

    Actually it was Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration and not John Hancock as your post suggests. Jefferson was the one who coined the phrase “a wall of separation” between church and state. Jefferson recognized that if government is involved with religion it will show favortism to one religion over another. This is exactly why religious groups try to co-opt the Declaration or the Constitution so that they can infuse their beliefs in the documents.

    Right now the attempt is to say the documents are “Christian” rather than “theist” which is a more accurate description. This has the effect of marginalizing all religions that are not Christian. The danger in the success of these groups is that eventually a “Christian US Constitution” will morph into a “Roman Catholic US Constitution” or a “Lutheran US Constitution” or an “Anglican US Constitution.” Then we will have government backed tyranny against these religions. Think not? Please refer to the fact that some states require religious tests in their state constitutions. All of these tests were invalidated by the US Supreme Court but were the US Supreme court to reverse itself the religious tyranny would be alive and well in the US.

  • John davis

    now now there is no reason to insult us, just simply make your statement and evidence.

    and i believe he is saying that no one has had the stability that we have had as a nation. all of your previously mentioned countries have had a “bad” era. and by bad i mean a total meltdown of the standing government. our bad era was the civil war, which was started because of slavery (as stated in the public humanist controlled school system). so our bad era was caused by a human evil, and that was the point he was trying to make, but if im wrong im sure he will correct me.

    “but thanks to the christian nations”
    like i said before, stop blaming Christians for human evils. the bible didnt say treat non believers like crap, so we dont. like i said, people back then (even people today) call themselves Christian but act in a totally non-Christian way. so dont hold that against the Christian but the Man.

    the separation of church and state was to keep the state out of the church, not the other way around. later on it was perceived the church out of the state.

    in fact, there cant be a separation from the state to all worldviews. if you separate one you separate all, including the worldview of secular humanism. but then how do we make our laws, expecially something so controversial as abortion or something like that. (im just using it as an example so calm down we will argue that some other time). the problem is that one world view is going to be in power and its going to oppress the others. our government is very humanist today, and are trying everything to keep religion out of it. well your doing what you attack me for doing (forcing my views on someone). why is it that when i talk against evolution that i get suspended, why is it that when i talk against abortion i get punished? its because the schools are controlled by the governing worldview, and that is secular humanism. obviously not a separation between the state and your “church”

    and if we can agree that the American classics are at least Theist, then thats one step in the right direction and i will have no argument there.

    and about the religious tyranny, you no nothing about it. if you go to china, you are fine, if i go to china, i get imprisoned and questioned. that is the religion of humanism being a tyrant over others. and its the same in at least 54 other countries.so before you go saying that the humanist worldview is fair to all, look at the countries that have tried it, Communist russia, Communist China, (all the other Communist countries since they are based off the humanist worldview) and others that i cant think of.

    you say that American isnt under a Tyrant, but you are not part of the oppressed people.

  • Jim

    Abruzzo,
    We don’t live in the times of Leviticus, why are you obsessed with slavery?

    And the Civil war was the War of Northern Aggression and had little to do with slavery.

    To everything else……what John said:

  • Abruzzo

    “We don’t live in the times of Leviticus, why are you obsessed with slavery?”

    You make a good point here but it was completely by accident. Why are people concerned with the bible when it is so ancient and backwards in its morality? I pointed out slavery because there is nothing redeemable about it. People will argue against homosexuality using the bible, like Dr. Laura did recently, and have no problem with it. They will do the same against women, saying that women should never become priests and have no business teaching men. But slavery? No. No one will ever say that slavery is good. However, that is what the bible says in Leviticus, Colossians, Ephesians and Luke.

    I have also pointed out in my previous posts how the bible’s teachings are incongruent with the US Constitution in the area of religious freedom. I do not care to re-assert them here but invite you to read my previous posts.

    “And the Civil war was the War of Northern Aggression and had little to do with slavery. ”

    This is another untrue statement that again shows your lack of understanding of your nation’s history.

    Let me refer to “The Cornerstone Speech” by the Vice-President of the Confederate States of America, Alexander Stephens delivered on March 21, 1861 in Savannah, GA.

    “But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. [Thomas]Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

    He later said.

    “Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.”

    Now if you were to read the entire speech you would see other complaints of economic and procedural variety but make no mistake about it: slavery was an important reason for the secession of the Southern States, the cornerstone of their constitution and their desire to start a new nation that lead to the start of the Civil War. Remember the first shot fired in the Civil War was from the Southern army.

    Now should the North have been concerned with the South? No not really. I would have said good riddance to bad rubbish. Let those immoral slave-mongers have their own country. Then make sure that every slave that comes over the border from the CSA is granted full US citizenship and never returned to those despicable slaveholders.

    Incidentally, isn’t odd for a Christian to support, or seemingly support the CSA? I mean calling it the War of Northern Aggression? Why didn’t the good Christians of the South simply free their slaves, since, according to you, that’s what the bible teaches? Another thought: Since the North won the war that would imply that god was on their side and against the South? You said slavery was “evil” and the CSA’s constitution explicitly protected slavery. Using your logic, the South must be inherently evil. Supporting the South therefore would be supporting evil, according to what you have written. So did god support evil by supporting the South. If not why do you?

  • John davis

    like i said previously over and over, slavery in the bible is different than slavery that took place in america. if you will not grasp this fact then we cannot move on.

    also your stream of thought about evil is cute. first, no one has said “i support slavery” so you having assumed that already puts you in a tough position. second, there were people in the south that would buy slaves just to free them, and others would be safe houses to get to the north. so there were people, and some were possibly Christian, that did help the slaves to freedom. I do agree with the north winning the war supposrts that God was on that side because if he wasnt, then they wouldnt have won. so yes God was on the side that was following his word the most. the South is not inherently evil, but man in whole is inherently evil.

    in your comment about letting the south be on their own, that suggests to me that you dont care enough to do something about the wrongs in this world. when i see something wrong, i want to do something about it, not sit back and watch and help that person when they reach me, but i want to go to that person and help. thats what the north wanted, among other things. so instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching, get in the game and help people who are in trouble.

    but as i say again, slavery in the bible is different then the slavery that was in america. you insult us by saying we have a lack of understanding but you are now just flat out ignoring evidence, and i will not play to your ignorance.

  • Abruzzo

    “like i said previously over and over, slavery in the bible is different than slavery that took place in america. if you will not grasp this fact then we cannot move on.”

    How is it different??? You said it was permitted by capturing someone in battle or by paying a debt. You also said it was for a limited period of time and not for the life of the enslaved yet Leviticus absolutely refutes these statements. It is not I who cannot grasp the facts. Show me anything that refutes Leviticus.

    “also your stream of thought about evil is cute. first, no one has said “i support slavery” so you having assumed that already puts you in a tough position.”

    You referred to the Civil War as “the war of Northern Agression”. This is a phrase that Southern apologists use. If you are sincere that you would not stand by while there was a wrong being committed then there is no way you would use the phrase “War of Northern Aggression” but rather you would afix the blame of teh South, where it belongs I might add. Also I guess you missed the part where I said that the states staying in the US should give all slaves who make it accross their boarders full citizenship and refuse to give them back to the Southern slave holders.

    “there were people in the south that would buy slaves just to free them,”

    Have you ever read a history book? There were slave holders, like Jefferson and Washington, that freeed their slaves upon their death. Others like Robert E. Lee refused to own slaves and when Lee did inherit slaves he freed them immediately ( although he was unable to do this with slaves his wife inherited) but the number of Southerners who spent money to buy slaves and then free them immediatley would be so small as to be insignificant, if this practice even happened at all. I doubt very seriously that you can back up this claim. Please do so in your next post.

    “you insult us by saying we have a lack of understanding but you are now just flat out ignoring evidence,”

    The evidence I use are quotations from the bible.

    “in your comment about letting the south be on their own, that suggests to me that you dont care enough to do something about the wrongs in this world. when i see something wrong, i want to do something about it, not sit back and watch and help that person when they reach me, but i want to go to that person and help. thats what the north wanted, among other things. so instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching, get in the game and help people who are in trouble. ”

    I am doing this. By pointing out the horrible violations of Natural Law that exist in a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible, The Koran or any other religious text. I fight to herald the virtues of science and reason and expose the harm blind faith inflict on people. Go amongst your christian brethern and tell them to stop going to faith healers, they do nothing for you. Stop saying that soldiers dying in Irag and Afghanistan are retribution from god for allowing homosexuality. Tell them for all that is reasonable to stop supporting idiots like Pat Robertson. Tell them to stop forcing Creationism, and/or Intelligent Design into science classes. It is not science. Most importatntly tell them to stop calling the US a Christian nation. It is a secular country that allows all religions.

  • John davis

    your getting your players mixed up, i never said it was northern aggression

    and no where in the bible says that anyone is born a slave, no people is made to be a worker for other people. it says that those that owe, and those that are captured are to work for the people, and its not a lifetime work, and the offspring of those “slaves” are free. unlike in american slavery, Africans were born slaves, the offspring were slaves, and there was no way to be free. there is a clear difference. when leviticus speaks of slaves, it means those i have mentioned, not the american slavery system.

    and dont tie Christianity from those of the Westboro Baptist church, they are not following the bible in the least bit and they are more like a cult than anything else. the Christian worldview shows love to all people of every faith, but it is also our job to spead the good news, if they dont accept then thats between them and god, but its up to me and my people to make sure they hear it.

    you tell you humanists to stop controling the schools, to stop forcing evolution down our throats, and to stop ignoring the fact that secular humanism is a religion. you dont accept all religions because if you did, then you would have a problem with what im saying. but because you do it shows me that you dont have a problem with religions until they start doing what they are commanded to do.

    and dont think that secular humanism doesnt have its major flaws, because in reality, humanism can work at all in a civilized society.the science doesnt back it up (122 constants of the universe), the logic doesnt back it up (moral relativism), and the world will not survive true humanism. countries have tried, and they have failed horribly.

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  • Abruzzo

    Sorry for getting the players mixed up.

    “and no where in the bible says that anyone is born a slave, no people is made to be a worker for other people.” “when leviticus speaks of slaves, it means those i have mentioned, not the american slavery system.”

    Not true at all. In Leviticus god tells the Israelites to make slaves of the people around them and does not require that they be taken because of a debt. You beleive that god created all humans and created them with a purpose. If so the purpose of the people god said were to become the slaves of the Israelites was to be a slave. It’s simple logic.

    I also think it is important to quote Leviticus so that you will see the error of your statement. Perhaps you were just unaware of exactly what Leviticus says.

    Leviticus 25:44-46

    44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the -nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Here you can see that:
    1) Slaves are bought
    2) Slaves are purchased for life
    3) Slaves may be passed along to children as inherited property.

    Now you know so there is no excuse for repeating the errors in your post.

    “and dont tie Christianity from those of the Westboro Baptist church”

    Why not? They are Christians.

    “and dont think that secular humanism doesnt have its major flaws,”

    It has flaws of course but nothing to compare to organized religon.

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