[...] Has Free Speech Reached Capacity on Metro? Lisa, a blogger at Rant & Reason, writes about an incident on the Metro. Excerpt: Somehow this scenario — a Muslim verbally attacking a Jew and then an atheist trying to say I’m sorry — just felt so surreal. [...]

Free speech isn’t about being able to corner someone on public transport. That’s like saying that free trade means being able to force people to buy my goods!

There is legal recourse if one is being threatened or even just plain harassed.

I would have been more upset if I had been verbally harassed by a Jew for Jesus.

But is it harrassment to quote the bible to me? Even without my permission, or am I being intolerant?

In the first instance with the Muslim man and the Jewish fellow, I would have had to do something if the altercation continued. That clearly was heading to the realm beyond free speech.

In the other case a person has the right to say what he or she wants and when the speaker is talking about how they love you and everyone and they aren’t hurting or threatening anyone, how can they be construed as harrassing anyone.

Yet in both cases I feel a need to apologize to the person who was chosen for the attention. I think that’s more what I’m struggling with that need to apologize for someone else’s speech. I’m probably naive but this has brought up quite a dilemna for me.

I can’t necessarily say it’s wrong for them to speak in fact, if a court case was brought I’d probably be on the proseltizers’ side, but I’m realizing now I’d be resenting them at the same time. I think I’m struggling with this moral dilemna of wanting to uphold the Humanist values I truly believe in but not wanting to be confronted on metros and buses.

i no longer feel the need to apologise for the human race. it’s understood quite clearly how feeble minded we are, and how much destruction we’ve caused to one another and this planet. most ill-will against man and nature has come at the hands of religion–organized or not. in the name of…(insert deity here).

i often rode the Orange line both out to new carrollton (where i lived for 15 years), and to vienna, and always, always there was some person spewing religious vitriol toward one or another.

we are buffoons.

The author wants to apologize to the kettle after the pot called it black. Anyone attempting to apologize to the religious for religious-based behavior is wasting their time. Both the Jews and the Muslims are known for religious extremism. Both groups see themselves as fundamentally right and everyone else as fundamentally wrong.

The problem is not extremism, but a thought process based on feeling instead of evidential logic. Any set of beliefs not based in reality lends itself to extremist behavior. Don’t apologize for extremism to someone who decided to head down that road themselves.

The Jewish man the Muslim was preaching to didn’t sound like an extremist, Chris V. On the contrary he kept his mouth shut and let the nut case rave on. Just because someone wears religious garb or whatever it is called, doesnt mean they are extremist.

I didn’t take the Jewish man for an extremist, if anything he just wanted to sit and do the work he had brought with him. I know I sound naive, I just want to find a way to have a more civilized experience.

I’m also getting to the stage in life where I can’t let things like this stand. I don’t want to add to the anger but I can’t let it stand anymore and I’m struggling with what to do. I’m struggling with why I couldn’t apologize to a man who I thought was being abused and why I still am so angry and confused.

I know first amendment rights are important, but there should be some exception for subways and other place where people can’t walk away from you. I know about the concept of fighting words but maybe that bar is too high? I don’t know I’m just frustraited. It was just wrong and I feel very powerless.

I’m still surprised you don’t see the irony of apologizing to a religious person as a result of the religious views of another.

Chris, if you’re talking to me yes I see the irony,and at some latter date this will make a great story, unfortunately right now that’s part of what peeves me about it all.

I suppose if we didn’t have religion we’d just have political nutter spouting off about the right of the left. I just want a civilized discussion and the recognition that a captive audience isn’t anyone’s personal audience.

I didn’t pay my bus fare to listen to you and you didn’t pay everyone fares in exchange for us listening to you. I’m not persecuting you because I don’t want you to preach on the metro or the bus, and I resent that I end up apologizing for you because you inflicted yourself on someone or did worse if they didn’t agree with you or asked you to leave them alone.

People who are tired of being a captive audience unite. In a civilized way please.

Yes, removing the religious implications makes your argument more clear.

A captive audience is an audience who has no choice but to attend. For example, school children are a captive audience because the law states that they must attend school.

But, there is no law which states you must ride the subway. There is no law which states which train you must ride, at which time, and which stop you must exit. You really aren’t captive since you chose to be there.

Creating a law which makes it illegal for passengers to talk to each other would be impractical at best. That law could lead to serious violations of civil rights at worst.

The best reaction to free speech that you do not like is not to limit free speech in general. The best reaction is more free speech to address what was previously said. When someone is getting attacked, don’t wait to apologize afterward to the abused, defend the abused immediately by countering the bully’s statements.

That’s probably why you felt the need to apologize. Here was a man getting bullied and you along with everyone else in the train did nothing to stand up for him.

Chris, I think what your saying makes sense. I felt a coward and then couldn’t apologize when I realized I hadn’t done anything to stop the the abusive man.

I feel a bit silly but it is starting to be come a good story all most a bad joke, A Muslin, a Jew and an Atheist get on a subway…

So I still think people who are tired of being a captive audience should unite. And we definately should be civilized. but I guess it will have to be through more speech. Which I think is what Humanists would agree.

This reminds me of something similar that happened one night…
I was on my way back to Jersey from Manhattan, and the train was packed like a can of sardines with homeward-bound commuters of various collars. The first stop in north Jersey lightened the load a bit, but most of the new passengers that boarded had to stand. One of them, a well-dressed, clean-cut, briefcase-carrying businessman, entered our car, and before he was able to get himself braced and positioned, the train abruptly started moving.
Anyone familiar with NJ Transit can attest that it isn’t the ’smoothest’ ride, and if you’re not holding onto something when the train lurches into motion, you may find yourself on your ‘arse’.

Anyway, that’s almost where the businessman would have found himself, were his reflexes slower. He quickly got hold of something, and avoided a fall. He did take one step backward to balance himself, and accidentally stepped on the tip of a passenger’s shoe (which had no place in the aisle to begin with). As quickly as it happened, he turned and apologized to the man seated.

This sort of thing happens at least several hundred times each day during ‘peak’ hours. Most commuters have played both roles, and are, if not polite, at least understanding, and generally act ‘civil’ toward each other.

Not that day.

The seated man (the ‘victim’) was a gray haired, blue-collar laborer (in his late 50’s, I’d say), and his yuppie ‘attacker’ (the polite businessman) happened to be black.

The ‘victim’ immediately seized upon the opportunity to portray himself as such, and (you could actually see the rusty wheels grinding in his head during the few seconds he took before opening his mouth to start belly-aching) he started bellowing “YOU STEPPED ON MY SHOE!” at the big black bogeyman.

The businessman turned to him (as politely as he was in his first apology) said, “I’m sorry, sir”.

The miserable ‘victim’ repeatedly examined his work boot for scuff-marks, the whole time whining “my shoe…he stepped on my foot”.
The businessman handled himself with dignity and a restraint that I’m apparently incapable of.

As the ‘victim’ continued to bit@h and moan, it became apparent to everyone witnessing the ’scene’ he wouldn’t let die that this was not just another annoying example of infantile adult behavior…it was some racist bull$h!t.

My friend and I (two white dudes in our mid/late 20’s, I should note) looked at each other and shook our heads, feeling each other’s frustration in biting our tongues as we waited for the old man to shut his xenophobic mouth.

But he didn’t…

Finally, he turned in our direction (we were seated on the opposite side of the aisle, one row behind the obnoxious bigot), and gave us ‘that’ look…
THAT ‘knowing’ look, that many young white people have received from older white people, that says “you see this ___insert racist slur here____?” regarding ‘minorities’. It can be as subtle as a stranger raising an eyebrow at you when a person of a different race plays into a stereotype. It’s the look that says “see? it’s true!”. I’m sure most of you know what I’m talking about.

Anyway, the mean old ba$tard eyes us slack-jawed and shakes his head, and there it was; our excuse to open fire.

“Don’t look at me like that,” spat my friend, “you ain’t getting no sympathy over here. The guy apologized. It was an accident. Get over it.”

The cranky old bigot’s eyes widened, and he looked to me. He shook his head, mouth agape “…unbelievable”

Green light. My turn.

“Turn back around and shut up, you racist old pr!ck.”

He was horrified.
The girl uncomfortably seated across from him bit her lip and grinned at me.
Muffled chuckling was heard from multiple passengers.
My friend and I felt…satisfied.

The biased dinosaur closed his mouth and breathed angrily from his nostrils…and simmered in his seat until his stop.

The black businessman (and I say “black” because I don’t know any black people who take any more offense to that word than I do being called “white” - my generation doesn’t concern ourselves with ‘PC’ nonsense because we don’t have the same hangups our elders do) nodded to us on his way out.
We had done our part, and felt good about ourselves for having done so.

Had we simply ignored the old man, or not gotten involved, we would have felt the same frustration that you did, Lisa.

I (and others I know) have felt your frustration, because there have been times where we’ve failed to act in the face of bull$h!t.
It could be something as trivial as ‘allowing’ someone to hold up a line, or saying nothing while an angry customer berates a nervous register girl (I know they’re called “clerks” - but register girl paints a clearer picture, doesn’t it?).
I got tired of that feeling (that…regret for ‘letting’ people behave like a$$holes) a LONG time ago.

I’ve been being confrontational for years now, and the only regrets I have are the times I think of something sarcastic/clever/offensive I should have added (that I wasn’t quick-witted enough to think of on the spot) after the fact.

I know it’s easier for me though - I’m from ‘Jersey’ - confrontation’s pretty much in my blood, and I’m 6′2″, 220lbs, and can turn on “intimidating” when I have to…so I can understand why others may be more hesitant to (for lack of a better term) ‘get in someone’s a$$’ as I am…

But it doesn’t matter half the time.
Sure, sometimes I can silence an obnoxious agitator by standing up to him (they’re nothing more than bullies, really), but some of them are unafraid - either because they know they can sue, OR because all people do these days is run their mouths.

The problem is that more people need the courage to use their ‘free speech’ to vocalize that they don’t want to hear someone else’s.

As much as I loathe Bill O’Reilly (and am aware what I’m about to say warrants comparison), people DO have a right to tell other people to “shut up”.

It may not be the ‘nicest’ way of dealing with people (and it certainly doesn’t promote discourse) but there’s a difference between disagreeing with someone who you’re willingly engaged in discourse with, and fending off an unsolicited annoyance.

Lisa, you asked “is it harrassment to quote the bible to me? Even without my permission, or am I being intolerant?”
Does it really matter if it qualifies as ‘harassment’?
If somebody’s BOTHERING you, don’t you have a right to tell them to ‘f#@k off’?
Who cares if that offends them - they take no consideration for whether their ideology offends you.

The most effective way of dealing with confrontational people is, unfortunately, by being confrontational.

Would I suggest you doing so one on one with a lunatic in a dark alley?
No.
On a public subway train with other people around?
Why not?

It may be ‘unseemly’, but making an aggressor feel stupid or embarrassed is effective in the short AND long-term, as it (hopefully) discourages them from being as quick to intrude in other people’s ears (or faces) in the future.

I agree that we should be (or TRY to be, in any case) civilized in ‘uniting’ against being ‘captive audiences’…but being too civilized (from my experience, at least) doesn’t often work out the way you’d hope.

In any given situation, there are generally two types of agitator:
Some are loud-mouth bullies who will back down when stood up to.
Others are dominant personalities who thrive on confrontation.

The former are easily put ‘back in line’…but the latter cannot be reasoned with. They’re like rabid pit bulls.

If you try being polite in standing up for yourself or others, you may be able to evince the folly of their actions (however well intentioned) and ‘learn them’ some public etiquette.
But with pit bulls (you can usually identify them by their crazed eyes, loud bark, and frothing mouths), in engaging them, you run the risk of of them responding more aggressively.

If you’re prepared for that, then opening your mouth will be a rewarding new hobby.

The other option is to remain silent.

No risk, no reward.

To me, the reward outweighs the risk.

If my friend and I helped ease racial tension in some small way (by showing that this generation of young people aren’t afraid to keep our elders in line, or inspiring even one person who witnessed the situation to take action themselves the next time, etc.), then it was worth it.

Lisa, you said “I’m also getting to the stage in life where I can’t let things like this stand. I don’t want to add to the anger but I can’t let it stand anymore and I’m struggling with what to do. I’m struggling with why I couldn’t apologize to a man who I thought was being abused and why I still am so angry and confused.”

I mean no offense, but let’s be realistic: apologizing for someone else’s behavior is about as helpful as handing someone a band-aid after watching them get hit by a car when you could have pushed them out of harm’s way.

You’re “struggling” with what to do?
You KNOW what to do.
You just need to find the courage…

Make it fun. Hell, it IS fun! Next time you see some religious nut pushing their brand on someone who isn’t buying, ask the unwilling recipient “Hey, did you ask to be harassed on your way home from work?”
or
“I noticed you’re not wearing a ‘CONVERT ME’ shirt, did he see you wearing one earlier?”
or
“Hey buddy, the devil said you’re boring him. Now be quiet so I can hear the voices again.”
OR
“Excuse me, while you were just preaching to that woman, I saw an angel appear above your head…yes…and she said [make an obscene motion with your hand]“.

Okay, maybe you wouldn’t be as comfortable using that last one as I would, but you get the idea.

I think you’re almost there. You seem to be having your ‘Network moment’, and good for you.
So go ahead, stick your head out the window and let the world know you’re mad as hell and you’re not going to take it anymore.
Just make sure you tell the next bully you encounter as well…