It would be interesting to learn whether David Horowitz is equally concerned about the fallacies and excesses and cruelties of other religions. Is he Jewish? If so, somebody please ask him if he still adheres to the racist notion of ethnic supremacy founded on the Genesis 17 myth of a covenant between a non-existent Yahweh and a possibly mythical Abraham. And whether he approves of a modern industrialized state adopting as its flag the prayer shawl (*tallit*) of a religious superstition - in spite of the fact that a large number of its citizens do not adhere to that faith but to other faiths.

I must admit I am quite puzzled by the atheist/humanist response to this. Does someone have to agree with you in every point for you to agree with a cause they bring to light? Are feminists not repulsed by the way Muslim women are treated? If so, it does seem a bit of a duplicity for someone to say they support feminism and then give Islam a “buy” on this issue. Do you have to agree with everything David Horowitz stands for to say, “he makes a good point here”?

You might want to read up on the whole thing a bit more. The point was to bring to light the teachings of Islamo-Fascism (taken word for word from the Koran) that are not being talked about because of political correctness. Are you not concerned with the rhetoric and stated goals of Islamo-Fascism as pointed out in the materials from IFA Week? (Their materials are taken directly from Islamic sources).

I also find it offensive that Christianity and the Jewish faith would be thrown in as a comparison. I know atheists/Humanists do not like Christians claiming America to be a Christian nation, but comparing Christianity/Judaism to Islamo-Fascism seems to show more bias than reason. Islamic Fascists are not only killing “infidels” around the world, but even their own people who do not practice their religion in a “pure” enough fashion.

I find it hard to believe that people who value reason so highly do not seem concerned about the issues brought up during Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week.

Why does Rob speak of “atheist/humanist” as if they are somehow linked? This is, by definition, a Humanist list. What status do atheists have here that is any different from the status Christians, Jews, Muslims and, umm, Rastafarians and Scientologists might have if they dropped in? So why do atheists get a special mention?

As to “Islamo-Fascism,” where does that neologism come from? It looks like an intentional insult. Wouldn’t we look with suspicion on use of, let’s say, Judaeo-Nazism? Or Stalino-bloody-Christianity?

Then there’s “stated goals.” Well, the fundie Christians are certain that De Lawd will “complete” all Jews by bringing them to accept de Lawd Jeezus Chrahst as their Lawd and Save-yah and bow the knee to Him, and the trespassing Jews living as illegal immigrants on the West Bank get away with their squatting - with help from the Government of Israel, which - by the way - still keeps its sticky fingers in America’s wallet at age 59! So are we to give Christians and Jews a pass while faulting the Muslims? Pshaw. I say a plague on them all. They all have blood on their hands.

If we’re going to throw insults around, I’m an equal opportunity insulter of all three supernatural Abrahamic religions.

Rob, As I said I only thought David Horowitz brought up the treatment of women under islam so that he could talk about “islamofascism” I don’t think he had in mind any discussiond of whether islamofascism was a fair term to use or even of how we could reach out to islam if we are going to use terminology like that. I brought in the “Christian Fanaticism Week” or “Axis of Evil” weeks to point out how extreme Horowitz had gone.

For me take word for word from the Koran how women are treated, would imply that I should also take word for word from the bible how women, are to be treated. I’ll grant they fair better than perhaps islam but we can pull out sources if that’s what it takes to make you see the insincerity of this ploy. Especially when Horowitz follows it by talking about gays and atheists.

There is no way he would get Santorium, Coulter or any others on that to speak if he really tried to find common ground with islam or if pointed went after islams’ abuses of gays and atheists.

A real discussion with Islam that might help end wars and save lives, I’d like to see that discussion. But name calling for no real purpose… we get that everyday.

I’m sorry I can’t say that Horrowitz was a little right here, it was a smoke screen for hate. Rob, we may have to agree to disagree on this one.

I’m appalled at the idea that people who label themselves “humanists” would support this kind of racist filth. I’m an atheist, but I am form a Muslim background, and in spite of my devout atheism and adherence to logic and reason, I can’t ignore the fact that half of my family is made up of moderate, peaceful Muslims who aspire to go to university, find careers, and build families. The Muslims I grew up with exhibited no tendencies of terrorism or any of that, and I think its horribly short sighted to claim that Muslims are killing infidels all over the world while Jews and Christians can’t compete with that. Did you forget about the horrors of the crusades, the inquisition, all of the Old Testament, and the treatment of Palestinians, akin to the US expulsion of Native Americans? And yes, there is racism involved with this Islamo-Fascism week, especially because it’s tied with conservative “libertarian” groups. It is nothing more than holding Judeo-Christian Industrialist/Imperialist values above those of “the other”. It’s shameless orientalism, which has little to do with Humanism as do the anti-immigrant, fascist political parties in Europe have to do with human rights.

I’m sorry if you misunderstood. I am appalled at the idea of Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week. As I said in my post I think the whole thing is very disturbing for Humanists. Rob’s opinion that Do you have to agree with everything David Horowitz stands for to say, “he makes a good point here”? is a ridiculous argument you can put any tyrant or monster of the day’s name into that statement and see why it’s not a reasonable way to work. If I’m being to vague try putting Hitler or Stalins name into the statement. (I apologize to Rob as I really respect you and I don’t want to slam you but I really can’t agree with how your giving Horowitz credibility here that he, at least in this instance, doesn’t deserve)

The term Islamo-Fascism is nothing but hate and fear mongering and is beneath contempt. Horowitz has sunk quite low with this. He is really denigrating himself.

To Rob, I don’t give Islam or any religion or political party a pass on how it treats any human. But this is not the right way to address such issues.

We have to look to something higher in all of us before we can address issues such as the human treatment of all people. I rant here. Because I want the time to be now and it isn’t yet. But I want to work toward making that time happen even though you can tell by my ranting that I’m not ready yet. That is why I appreciate people like Rob, and actually everyone that I can engage with here. We keep the conversation moving. We can find better answers.

Muslims Against Sharia congratulate David Horowitz FREEDOM CENTER and Mike Adams, Tammy Bruce, Phyllis Chesler, Ann Coulter, Nonie Darwish, Greg Davis, Stephen Gale, David Horowitz, Joe Kaufman, Michael Ledeen, Michael Medved, Alan Nathan, Cyrus Nowrasteh, Daphne Patai, Daniel Pipes, Dennis Prager, Luana Saghieh, Rick Santorum, Jonathan Schanzer, Christina Sommers, Robert Spencer, Brian Sussman, Ed Turzanski, Ibn Warraq and other speakers on the success of the Islamofascism Awareness Week.

Islamofascism (or Islamism) is the main threat facing modern civilization and ignorance about this threat is astounding. We hope that this event becomes regular and reaches every campus.

A great many Westerners do not see the clear distinction between Islam and Islamism (Islamofascism). They need to understand that the difference between Islam and Islamism (Islamofascism) is the same as the difference between Christianity and Christian Identity Movement (White Supremacy Movement).

Original post

I have to say that it is interesting that there is ANY argument against what Lisa has said here. Unlike a blog of say, American Atheists, or the ‘humanist turned atheist’ Center for Inquiry/Council for Secular “Humanism”, THIS blog is by and for actual humanists, not atheists. Atheism is merely the absence of theism.. it says nothing about what we believe in, only what we don’t. Sure, most of us here will probably BE atheists or agnostics of some variety, some may be non-supernaturalistic religionists, but we all are humanists (not counting, of course any non-humanist visiting just to see what we’re all about).

That said, of course ‘Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week’ was a racist, right wing, anti Muslim (maybe even anti- Arab) diatribe from the Right. While just about any ethical person (religious or not), can advocate for women (and others) being oppressed under political Islam (which is the main form Islamic Fundamentalism takes in the Middle East), we KNOW the Right really does not care about this because they are anti-women in almost every other situation (including Ann Coulter).

Folks like these - named above by the reactionary ‘Muslims Against Sharia’ - have little to no interest in understanding WHY “Islam” has taken over much of the Middle East because THEY are the ones who were behind U.S. Foreign Policy that disapeared the nationalists, secularists and socialists in the region, and replaced them with Islamists in the first place!

Their “awareness week” is just part of their smoke screen campaign to point the finger away from the U.S. and on some hard to pin down bogey man (Islamism), just as they argue against “evil.” They want to send fear into every American and Westerner’s heart so as to be allowed to keep their real war going. This war is NOT with Islam at all, but IS about bring neoliberal capitalism to the Middle East to gain more markets, make more money, and gain more global power for the rich and elite!

Having the likes of Horowitz (who denies Israel’s role in all this), Ladeen, Hannity, Santorum and Pipes arguing about Islam is like have the KKK argue against young black men’s treatment of black women in poor cities!

Humanists REFUTE people like these, they don’t share a stage with them because some reactionary atheists in their circles think they have a common enemy! Should humanists now be foot soldiers in the “war on terror?”

The U.S. allied with bin Laden against the USSR and we now see the blow-back from THAT relationship. Do we want to ally ourselves with the racist, xenophobic, imperialist Right because we are scared of Muslims, or do we want to understand how things got to be as they are in Muslim countries, and how to find humanistic solutions?

I find it difficult enough that some humanists have jumped on the “new atheist” band wagon not ever realizing that there is a difference between atheism and humanism, and even between intelligent atheism and polemical nonsense dispensed by the likes of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens. Dawkins does not even try to understand religion evolutionarily like DS Wilson is trying. Harris and Hitchens dismiss all things political and economic regarding the Middle East and claim its all about the religion. Of course it them sounds scary, you can’t kill a religion, so we’re doomed unless we kill as many Muslims as we can or what… drop atheist tracks on Iraq and Iran? But if much of the problem stems from political and economic relationships (such as the US controls in a big way), then we CAN make the world safer. But that may not be good for the powerful, rich elite!

It is disheartening at the very least that CFI/CSH, for instance, have themselves become so highly Islamaphobic that they now share their humanist ideological stage with the likes of some of the same reactionaries we just talked about… Hitchens, Harris, Ladeen, Warraq (who thinks British Colonialism was good for India), Wafa Sultan, and - with a recent conference in Florida - the CIA and Mossad of the Intelligence Summit!

Let’s be grateful AHA has not made any deals with the devil because of a lack of proper study and misplaced fear.

As one good friend put this all recently, “To make an issue of ‘Islamism’ as one of the most important potent forces in this scenario is a joke of major proportions. The idea that we really could face a ‘return to the medieval’ is simply a reflection of the fear of the changes now being reflected within the development of capitalism itself. The notion that the Taliban could wind up in control of the ‘world-historical moment’ (or that Afghanistan is the center of the world-struggle) is a fairy-tale, used to cover up the impotence of the ruling political classes in the face of their own ignorance about the underlying development of material reality. Al-Qaida isn’t ‘medieval’ at all; but modern to the core, and is about the struggle over political power and economic resources. But the real centers of power in the world of Islam in the modern (yes, modern) world are Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. They are centers of such power precisely because they are closely tied to Euro-American capitalism. As is, of course, Israel.”

Barry,

You are such an idiot! I won’t even go into “Islam is not a race” argument, but you claim that we are “the ones who were behind U.S. Foreign Policy” is simply hilarious. Most of the members of Muslims Against Sharia either do not live in the USA or came here within last five years. You must be one of those moronic conspiracy theorists who thinks that 9/11 was perpetrated by the Jews.

MAS:

First, I never said Islam was a “race” anymore than Jews are a race.

Secondly, I also never said MAS is partly to blame for the upsurge in Political Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere, but that imperialism and colonialism were (along with other sociopolitical and economic reasons)!

What I said, then, was that the folks you claim to support (the creators of the reactionary, smoke and mirrors scheme Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week) ARE!

And no, 9/11 was perpetrated by Saudi’s because of the U.S. relationship with the Saudi leaders and other U.S. political follies in the region… And was allowed to happen by the idiots who run this country.

Exhibit A.
“of course ‘Islamo-Fascist Awareness Week’ was a racist … diatribe”

Exhibit B.
“I never said Islam was a “race””

Conclusion:
You don’t know the meaning of simple terms.

Suggestion:
Learn the meaning of terms before attempting to discuss subject outside of the grasp of your modest IQ.

I think the reason I (and that’s me speaking not the AHA or any other group) can’t support David Horowitz or the Freedom center is that I believe they are using the fears many Americans have about Islam to condemn all Islam as IslamFascism. I don’t see them reaching out to work on peaceful solutions but rather see them inflaming hatred and fear. If for some reason Islam were not their to vilify I believe they would move to some other group.

We identify the religous right, or more extreme groups as Christian-fascits at the same peril. Reaching out to anyone to try to solve differences with hateful names is akin to reaching out with a fist. We must endeavor to find ways of communication that lead with the best of our humanity.

From the Do Not Name the Teddy Bear post,/a> Canada Ted sent us this:

I think that is the lesson we all must start with and end with if we wish to effect change in the world.

Lisa is correct, of course. It’s not about whether or not fundamentalism is dangerous… of course it is! It’s about “why fundamentalism,” which requires an IQ higher than the MAS rep. seems to demonstrate above to answer, and it’s about what we can do to turn back fundamentalism in a humanistic, rather than reactionary, racist, imperialistic, know-nothing manner (the sort advocated by the IFAW folks).

And, so there is no lingering confusion, by racist I mean anti-Arab, not anti-Islam.

As for the Arabs or Pakistanis or other non Euro-Americans on IFAW’s side - like Ibn Warraq, Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, etc - it does not take an IQ much higher than the rep. of MAS on this blog has to see that they are NOT speaking for or to Muslims in the region to help them overcome U.S. Imperialism AND Fundamentalism… No, they are speaking to Western audiences who want to justify their many wars and government turnovers in the region to absolve them of the guilt from the reality that 9/11 was as much the US’s fault as bin Laden and boys’.

These people have swallowed the Pax Amerikka argument and are working against their own former country-folk in no less a way than those black Africans who co-operated with the European slave traders centuries ago. Listen to Sultan’s lies about Israel, see who Ali works for, read Warraq’s new book if you disagree.

And, if you want a high IQ understanding of these issues, read the work by Noam Chomsky, Robert Dreyfuss, Tariq Ali, Fawzia Khan, Edward Said, Robert Fisk, Gilbert Achcar, and others.

MAS Rep:

Is that the best your intellect can come up with? “You’re an idiot?” And you claim you are not a reactionary?

PS: Racism has nothing to do with biological race. There is only one biological race - HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN (or do you deny evolution like many on the IFAW do?). Racism, however, is based on the “social construct” of race; so their can be racism with out biological race.

Tell me, what is your solution to the problem of political Islam in the Middle East/Africa? I’d love to know!

“Our “solution to the problem of political Islam in the Middle East/Africa” and everywhere else for that matter is complete eradication.”

My point exactly. Why are you posting on a humanist blog? Stay with the Islamaphobes on Fox News.

If Humanism has such bedfellows as MAS (how did he get on this blog anyway?)advocates for, humanism will become synonymous with the Right-wing narratives of world politics; the field will have become very muddy, and humanists couldn’t then claim to be the ideological keepers of liberal democracy, progressive ideals, and ethical high-grounds. People will connect the dots and see that who represents the Neo-Con Right and humanism in America are many times, the same people!
If humanists do the ethical thing and finally take a definitive stand against the Israeli government, people will see Dershowitz in our camp.
If humanists offer clear and serious arguments against imperialism and blood for oil, people will see Hitchens, Ladeen, Horror-witz, etc. in our camp.
If humanists take a genuine and clear stance against the Talibanization of the Middle East, showing how the US and England were to blame for much of this (and worked to make it worse and not better long after 9/11), people will see that Warraq, Harris, Hitchens, Sultan, Pipes, and Ali are all in our camp.
Why?
Because they all hate Islam?
Because some want to find someone to blame so as long as it’s not themselves?
Because it’s a distraction and fear-motivator for the “war on terror”… which is code for Pax America’s “full spectrum dominance” over the entire planet to make it safe for neoliberal capitalism?
The humanist critique of all obstacles blocking the way toward us reaching a humanistic future society becomes null and void so as long as we share the ideological stage with those who proudly represent those very obstacles! All because we fear Islam more than we fear imperialism and colonialism… and less than we fear working hard to help our worldly neighbors…
The Islamofascists are not the friends of humanism, we must never forget this. Let’s not make a deal with the devil because some among us are reactionary.

MAS..

I did not say YOU were an Islamaphobe, but your rhetoric fits right in with such folks. But come to think of it, I know plenty of folks who are afraid of religion rather than try to understand it.. and some even dare call themselves religious also! I do not know if you are a religious person or not, but even if you were, there is nothing odd about you being an Islamaphobe (religion is full of such seeming contradictions). I better stop here on that, you are probably not following me and will soon have the urge to call me an idiot again.. But I do wonder why you have drunk the Right’s bogey-man Kool Aid.

And I DO want to end fascistic forces and any like them.. which is why I want real solutions and not IFAW’s nonsense.

You may have not called me an Islamophobe, but you called IFAW racist. According to you ‘Arab’ is a race. Nonie Darwish, one of the IFAW speakers, is an Arab. So, according to you, she must be an anti-Arab racist, which makes you an idiot. If you weren’t such a moron, you wouldn’t be making this “racist” shit up. Try to find a single sentence spoken by Horowitz during IFAW that is racist or Islamophobic, you degenerate.

You sound just like the kinds of folks you seem to hate. Using words like ‘idiot’ and ‘degenerate’ are what I’d expect from fundamentalists (or Chris Hitchens when he’s particularly drunk)… How do you see your attitude as contributing to the dialogue?

Anyway, I am not gonna have the “race” conversation because clearly you think we need real biological races (where there is only one here, the Human race), to justify calling racists what they are.

As for the opportunistic Arabs or Indians or Pakistanis, etc., whom either disingenuously or naively are involved in the IFAW movement … well, if the term ’self-hating Jew’ can be used so often by defenders of Israel against humanistic Jews, then there must be something to the notion of ’self-loathing’ after all.

Of course, humanistic Jews (atheistic or otherwise) are NOT ’self-hating’ when they rightly criticize the state of Israel for its treatment of Palestinians (uh, oh… IFAW’s Ann Coulter may not agree with that truism), but perhaps folks like Warraq are?

I wouldn’t know, perhaps they have just decided that the Imperial West is innocent of all evildoing and Islam is the great evil of the world (ignoring the fact that the West made political Islam what it is today), and so they will side with a bigger devil to fight a lessor one.

Of course this will never resolve the real problems in the Middle East, now will it?

Your “solution” smacks of Nazism… “complete eradication.” Whatever do you mean by this?

And it’s worth reprinting what I posted earlier on what the real problem is:

“To make an issue of ‘Islamism’ as one of the most important potent forces in this scenario is a joke of major proportions. The idea that we really could face a ‘return to the medieval’ is simply a reflection of the fear of the changes now being reflected within the development of capitalism itself. The notion that the Taliban could wind up in control of the ‘world-historical moment’ (or that Afghanistan is the center of the world-struggle) is a fairy-tale, used to cover up the impotence of the ruling political classes in the face of their own ignorance about the underlying development of material reality. Al-Qaida isn’t ‘medieval’ at all; but modern to the core, and is about the struggle over political power and economic resources. But the real centers of power in the world of Islam in the modern (yes, modern) world are Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. They are centers of such power precisely because they are closely tied to Euro-American capitalism. As is, of course, Israel.”

“Your “solution” smacks of Nazism… “complete eradication.””

My solution is a complete eradication of fascism, you fucking moron! God, you’re stupid!