Crime and Protestant?
A judge in Scott County, Iowa has come up with a new solution to prison overcrowding–send offenders to church instead. According to a story in the March 20 Quad-city Times, Judge Christine Dalton has sentenced Pachino Hill to a church-run counseling program for charges of eluding and driving while barred stemming from a police chase from Rock Island to Davenport in October. Hill must also attend church for eight consecutive Sundays, pay a fine, and be on probation for one year. In fairness, Hill can choose two years in prison if he prefer. The optional prison sentence aside it’s pretty clear this is a violation of church and state. I mean even the idea of sending Hill to a church-run counseling program is pushing the envelope.
Two things come to mind: What happens if Hill acts out at the church and robs or injures a church member? And what happens next time? Who will receive the next would-be convict—Catholics? Jews? Muslims? Or should we check out some religions that we haven’t thought of.
In all seriousness, in America no one should be forced to attend church even as punishment. That isn’t coming out quite how I mean it but I think you get the idea. You can’t force someone to convert to any religion any more than you can demand that they have no religion. The state shouldn’t be in the business of deciding what citizens’ religion should be. And relating it to crime and punishment is even more incendious as it makes freedom dependent upon one’s beliefs. This absolutely should not be tolerated in a just society.
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Lisa, First I would like to say that your information you provided is incorrect. But let’s say it were true, do you know if Hill believes in God or is a Christian?
Second, it appears from the list of crimes below that the “secular” justice systems has not worked in Hill’s favor since he was 14 years old!
Now the truth of the matter is that HILL’s “Attorney” Brenda Drew Peeples, presented the judge with the Conseling alternative, not the Judge. The article quote below states the following:
“Let’s give it a shot,” Dalton said of the counseling program plan presented to her by Hill’s attorney, Brenda Drew-Peeples, and supported by Rogers Kirk, pastor at Third Missionary. “I’m all about one more chance.”
The counseling program, Drew-Peeples said, is a chance for Hill to gain role models who are responsible men and are contributing to society.
“I believe God has a plan for Pachino Hill’s life, and I believe it’s coming to fruition,” she said (Peeples). http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2008/03/20/news/local/doc47e18a0290dec912417296.txt
Here is a list of HILL’s CHARGES:
Hill was charged when he was 14 years old with first-degree murder in connection with the shooting death of Lawrence Brown Johnson. He was accused of giving the gun used in the shooting to Clyde Edwards Jr.Hill pleaded guilty to voluntary manslaughter and terrorism. Hill was sentenced to 15 years in prison.
December 2002 - Hill was one of three men charged with attempted murder for allegedly shooting at a Davenport police officer.
October 2004 - arrested for helping Bryan Mitchell of Davenport leave the area of the fatal shooting of Grayling Church, 20, of Davenport.
March 2006 - charged with attempted murder in the shooting of a 28-year-old man in the thigh.
April 2006 - charged with child endangerment.
July 2006 - drug charge
August 2006 - charge with domestic assault
July 2007 - he led police on a chase during a traffic enforcement effort on the Centennial Bridge. He pleaded guilty to driving while barred and received probation.
Crime and Alternatives should be the name of the post. The secular system failed and the alternative may work!
BFBF
I don’t know if Hill is a Christian a Muslin or a Jew or anything else, I don’t see why it’s the courts business enforcing his attendance at any church, period. That should be a choice he makes himself, for himself. Hill’s attorney may have proposed the sentance, but the judge was responsible for accepting or declining it. So it was the judges decision.
I don’t think I can stop you from seeing this as a failure of a secular system, because you really want him to turn his life around through religion. But forcing religion on someone is really against what our country stands for. I hope he can turn his life around but I’m leary of doing it this way.
If he has a religious conviction on his own great, but to try to force one on him or force him to jail is a dubious blessing and I fear will instill other values than the ones hoped for.
“I don’t know if Hill is a Christian a Muslin or a Jew or anything else, I don’t see why it’s the courts business enforcing his attendance at any church, period. That should be a choice he makes himself, for himself.”
-Well there is an attorney client relationship there, and 9.99 chance out of 10, Hill and his attorney discussed it before presenting it to the judge. You make it seem as if he had no choice in the matter!
“I don’t think I can stop you from seeing this as a failure of a secular system, because you really want him to turn his life around through religion.”
-I don’t see how you can’t see that the secular system failed! I don’t care what alternative he takes to change his life around. The fact is that he did not get rehabilitated though the secular system; THAT did not work.
“If he has a religious conviction on his own great, but to try to force one on him or force him to jail is a dubious blessing and I fear will instill other values than the ones hoped for.”
-Well the point is that you didn’t know what he had, because he was not forced to do anything according to the article, Hill “reached” out to Rev. Kirk.
In America there are plenty of religous people “visiting” and speaking to those that are in prison to help them turn their lives around, and it has worked. What does the Secular or Atheist community have to offer?
“Hill’s attorney may have proposed the sentance, but the judge was responsible for accepting or declining it. So it was the judges decision.”
-The judge may be religous or not, I don’t know. But, the judge has a responsibility to the “COMMUNITY” first, and not to a secular constitution! She has to protect the Community from this man, and she did what she thought was best for the community and Hill; She JUDGED what was best for all.
Would you prefer he continue to go in and out of the secular system that had failed him since he was 14 years old, then to get out and kill maybe someone you know? Or rehab him by any means neccessary to make him a law biding citizen?
“If he has a religious conviction on his own great, but to try to force one on him or force him to jail is a dubious blessing and I fear will instill other values than the ones hoped for.”
-What “you” fear is something you have to deal with. You are speculating about instilling other values than rehabilitation in Hill. What statistics are you reading to warranty your fear?
Without reading any statistics, I’ll bet that religion has help in rehabilitation more than not.
BFBF
BFBF
So the Secular system failed? I don’t think so.
Pachino Hill failed.
Who owns the personal responsibility in this case?
Pachino Hill.
Who committed all of the crimes listed by Brotha?
Pachino Hill.
Now his lawyer says that by going to church Pachino Hill’s life will get turned around. Perhaps, but not likely. If being in jail doesn’t cure Hill of his crminal ways I don’t see how being set free under the conditions of going to church, attending counseling and probation would change Hill’s behvior.
One should not make the mistake of using Hill as an indicator as to whether a secular or religious value system works or fails. Hill failed at ALL value systems when he assited in the murder of another.
“So the Secular system failed? I don’t think so.”
-Proove that it has not. I know that it has, because the statistics will show that the system has not gotten any better!
“Pachino Hill failed.”
-I think his parents failed and just as you and other will blame this or that for why some women act like this or that who had this or that happen to them when they were young being the reason why they act like this or that. So you are saying that a woman who was sexually abused as a minor that decides to kill men whenever she gets a chance is labeled as a failure? Or will you provide excuses as to why it is not the same.
“Who owns the personal responsibility in this case?
Pachino Hill.”
-The system was set up to rehabilitate criminals correct? If they can’t then they have failed, and the statistics will show that they have failed more than helped!
“Who committed all of the crimes listed by Brotha?
Pachino Hill.”
-Why did he initially commit his first crime, which produced a snowball effect because he was not help by the system?
“Now his lawyer says that by going to church Pachino Hill’s life will get turned around. Perhaps, but not likely.”
-So what if his Lawyer said this or that, “Hill” reach out to the Rev, and that’s the point here. Bringing up what the lawyer said is really irrelevant; she has the right to her opinion
“If being in jail doesn’t cure Hill of his crminal ways I don’t see how being set free under the conditions of going to church, attending counseling and probation would change Hill’s behvior.”
-Wow, I see that you are willing to let him continue with his behavior just because you have issues with religion. Kill, kill, kill, just don’t use religion to help those that kill when all else has failed, it’s better for him to be kill?
“One should not make the mistake of using Hill as an indicator as to whether a secular or religious value system works or fails. Hill failed at ALL value systems when he assited in the murder of another.”
-So William what’s your solution? It seems like you rather kill him than help him by any means necessary. Where are your “secular” rehab suggestions?
BFBF
“So William what’s your solution? It seems like you rather kill him than help him by any means necessary. Where are your “secular” rehab suggestions?”
Personal Responsibility. Simple, direct and to the point. Doesn’t matter how one develops it but it must be what we strive for. I answered your last question first because I thought it the most important.
“So the Secular system failed? I don’t think so.”
-Proove that it has not. I know that it has, because the statistics will show that the system has not gotten any better!”
Ok. Me I am the proof. Can’t get more secular than me and I have NEVER been arrested or even tried for a felony. The most one will see looking at my criminal record is a few traffic tickets. This can’t be said of Rev. Jim Bakker who was convicted of fraud and sent to jail.
I’ve never been to a prostitute. That can’t be said of Jimmy Swaggert. That man was so dumb he was caught twice!
I’m not a pedophile. That can’t be said of Frank Houston who was advised to quit as pastor of National Assemblies of God in Australia in 2000 when it was discovered that he had had sex with a teenage boy in the 1970’s.
I think I do alright so it shows that secular morals are good. Bit one must live them and not just talk about them.
“Pachino Hill failed.
-I think his parents failed and just as you and other will blame this or that for why some women act like this or that who had this or that happen to them when they were young being the reason why they act like this or that. So you are saying that a woman who was sexually abused as a minor that decides to kill men whenever she gets a chance is labeled as a failure? Or will you provide excuses as to why it is not the same.”
No Pachino Hill failed and yes a woman who kills men because she was sexually abused failed. Just like the boys molested by catholic priests. Even though the catholic church did nothing to stop thise priests until, in some cases, decades later those people DO NOT have an excuse to kill. They need help but have no excuse to kill.
“If being in jail doesn’t cure Hill of his crminal ways I don’t see how being set free under the conditions of going to church, attending counseling and probation would change Hill’s behvior.
-Wow, I see that you are willing to let him continue with his behavior just because you have issues with religion. Kill, kill, kill, just don’t use religion to help those that kill when all else has failed, it’s better for him to be kill?”
Actually I’m for putting him in prison away from the rest of society. It is you that is arguing form him to be among us.